Nunn Commission- under construction

Page 3251 DISCUSSIONS
Q & A Discovery Service Inc. Certified Court Reporters
INQUIRY OPENS - FEBRUARY 21, 2006 - 10:06 A.M.

http://www.nunncommission.ca/home/nav.cfm?id=19

COMMISSIONER: Good morning, counsel.
COUNSEL: Good morning.
MR. MESSENGER: Good morning, Mr. Commissioner.
COMMISSIONER: Alright, Mr. Messenger.
MR. MESSENGER: Thank you, Mr. Commissioner. We're going to continue with the evidence of Ms. Osmond this morning, who's back with us.

Page 3252 MS. OSMOND, EXAM. BY MR. MESSENGER
CHERYL OSMOND, previously sworn, continued to testify as follows:
EXAMINATION (continued) BY MR. MESSENGER

77. Q. Ms. Osmond, when we broke yesterday, I think I was beginning - we were beginning to talk a little bit more about the decision to have A. placed in a group home setting at the Reigh Allen Center, and at the Hawthorne House, as well. And I just want to look at a couple of documents that back up some of the material, 'cause I understand that there was no need, in this case, for you to go to Court to have A. placed in a setting like this, right?

A. Right.

78. Q. It was a voluntary agreement?

A. Yes.

79. Q. And that was a decision - an agreement that was made with A.'s mother?

A. Yes.

80. Q. And I just want to look at the form of one of those agreements, and in the volume in front of you, if you turn, for example, to page 6719. Actually, 6729, please. And I'm looking at a temporary care agreement form pursuant to Section 17 of the Children and Family Services Act?

A. That's right.

81. Q. And Section 17 of the Children and Family Services Act says that:

Page 3253 MS. OSMOND, EXAM. BY MR. MESSENGER
A parent or guardian who is temporarily unable to care adequately for a child in that person's custody and an agency may enter into a written agreement for the agency's temporary care and custody of the child.

A. That's right.

82. Q. And that's what this form represents?

A. Yes.

83. Q. And every time, or each time that A. was involved in an arrangement where he was placed in a group home setting on a voluntary basis - and it was never done involuntarily, right?

A. Right.

84. Q. One of these forms was completed?

A. Yes.

85. Q. Right. So it sets out the purpose of the agreement. It's noted that: The parents are temporarily unable to care adequately for their child. And the reason that's listed there is: Parent/adolescent conflict...

A. Yes.

86. Q. (Quoting):
...unmanageable behavior/noncompliance, and breakdown in trust.

Page 3254 MS. OSMOND, EXAM. BY MR. MESSENGER

A. Yes.

87. Q. And is that shorthand, if you will, for the circumstances that you described that led to the placement of A. in these settings?

A. Yes, it is. Yeah.

88. Q. And there's an acknowledgment that: The parties agree that the placement is voluntary.

A. Yes.

89. Q. And on the next page, on 6730, it talks about the obligations of the parents, and the obligations of the agency.

A. Yes.

90. Q. And in this particular case, the parents had access to A. - they were able to visit him and contact him, right?

A. Yes.

91. Q. And was that case in the other care agreements that were entered into?

A. Yes. Yeah, they always had, they were able to contact him at any time.
Liberal access, I guess would be...

92. Q. And there's an obligation of the agency in part four, it talks about - it identifies you as the key worker, and you agree to keep the parents informed of the progress of the child, including notice of any emergency involvement of the child, or any absence of the child from agency case, and notice of any change in placement?

Page 3255 MS. OSMOND, EXAM. BY MR. MESSENGER

A. Yes.

93. Q. So when we hear evidence from, for example, representatives from the Reigh Allen Center or Hawthorne House, and we heard it from Mrs. L., as well, that the agency contacted her when A. went missing or was running.

A. Either the agency or someone from the group home.

94. Q. Right. This is what that - there's an obligation in the agreement that that's required? And we won't walk through it all, but there's a case plan that's set out, talking about the goals and objectives of the placement?

A. Mmm hmm. Yes.

95. Q. And in this case, it was identified as: Attendance at family counselling, A.'s attendance at school, co-operation with services as determined to be in the best interests of the child and his family?

A. Yes.

96. Q. There are - is information on consent to medical treatment on the next page. There's a section there about financial contribution. What expectation is there for a parent, under a voluntary care arrangement, to make financial contribution to the costs of care of the child?

* A. As a general rule, when a child comes into care, the Child Tax Credit is
- goes to the Department of Community Services, and so the parent no longer receives that. A means

Page 3256 MS. OSMOND, EXAM. BY MR. MESSENGER

test should be completed to see what the parents are able to contribute on a monthly basis or a weekly basis, whatever, and in some cases the parents will have medical coverage so the child will continue to be covered under their
medical, or they will be responsible for clothing needs, as an example.

97. Q. And the arrangements and the financial contribution in this case, were they any different from what you described?

A. No.

98. Q. And then finally there are some special terms noted in the agreement. It says: A. will participate in the placement, including attending school. And also it says: This agreement will only be valid if an appropriate placement exists.

A. That's right.

99. Q. And that appropriate placement is if there's a bed available...

A. Yes.

100. Q. ...at a center, or appropriate group home facility?

A. Yes.

101. Q. That was the temporary care agreement for November 17th so 20th, 2003, which I think was his first entry into the system.

A. Yes.

Page 3257 MS. OSMOND, EXAM. BY MR. MESSENGER
102. Q. There were at least three other agreements dealing with his time. Without turning all of those up, although for the record I'll say they're document 6715, 6719 and 6725, but are you aware of any of the key terms or arrangements changing in the voluntary agreement?

A. It would - it stayed pretty much the same, but the - I guess the most
important thing on any of the agreements was that the agreement was only in
place as long as there was an appropriate placement. So the agreement was basically predicated on placement.

103. Q. In the course of your care for A., or your involvement in his file, you would have regular reports, I suspect, in addition to the information that was added into the computer system that we've looked at, with - or meetings with your supervisor, is that...

A. Yes.

104. Q. ...right? And would you be under an obligation to report the various care plans that you put in place and get her feedback...

A. Yes.

105. Q. ...on the approach?

A. We - it would be done in consultation.

* 106. Q. Okay. And just, again, your supervisor was Mary Craig, I understand?

A. That's right.

Page 3258 MS. OSMOND, EXAM. BY MR. MESSENGER
107. Q. Again, just by way of example of a case plan that you would've prepared, I wonder if you can look at document 6742 in that volume. This is a document that's noted to be a supervisor case plan.

A. Yes.

108. Q. And the date of it is September 16th, 2003.

A. Yes.

109. Q. And the purpose of this, I understand, it would be completed by you and your supervisor, Ms. Craig?

A. That's right.

110. Q. Talking in depth about the particular situation, and you would make recommendations on his ongoing care or steps that you planned to take?

A. Yes.

111. Q. And she would agree, and together you would...

A. We would discuss what we felt would be the case plan for this particular
family.

112. Q. Right.

A. Yes.

113. Q. And this is just one example of a case plan, but I understand that there were other ones prepared in the course of care?

A. We meet at least once every three months, in a formalized setting. More
frequently, if it's necessary, if there was a situation occurring that required
supervisory

Page 3259 MS. OSMOND, EXAM. BY MR. MESSENGER

input, then we would just, we would do what would be called a consult, and it
would be listed in the case management system as such.

114. Q. So in this particular case, September '03, this was before A.B. was first in the group home setting.

A. That's right.

115. Q. So if we were to turn to the end of this document, at 6746, which is page 5 of the document, we'll see notes in here, and I believe this is Ms. Craig's handwriting.

A. Yes.

116. Q. Yeah. Continue to supervise the child in his home, continue to offer rehabilitative and supportive services to this family. Monitor child's emotional wellbeing through his counsellor and other observations and collateral checks.

A. That's right.

117. Q. So that's the steps that were - you agreed on as part of the plan...

A. Yes.

118. Q. ...for care of A.B.?

A. Yes.

119. Q. I just felt it was important for us to look at some of the documents, and the way that the system works. So you can put that aside. We know from other evidence that in

Page 3260 MS. OSMOND, EXAM. BY MR. MESSENGER
January 2004 A.B. committed his first motor vehicle, at least the one that he, first that he was charged for.

A. Yes.

120. Q. You were involved in his care at this time, right?

A. Yes.

121. Q. Were you aware of this criminal charge?

A. I was made aware of it, yes.

122. Q. And what - how would you find out?

A. I believe that his mother had called me to let me know what was happening
in that situation.

123. Q. Well, more importantly, I think, and you don't need to look at any additional notes there, just what you can remember is fine. We understand that - well, let me ask you this. What involvement did you have in the criminal justice system vis a vis A.?

A. The involvement that I had with the criminal justice system came later,
later on.

124. Q. Mmm hmm.

A. A. was referred to the Restorative Justice Program, so I attended meetings with him to sort of facilitate his participation in that program.

125. Q. And what role, specifically, did you play in the Restorative Justice Program?

A. I was basically his adult support person. When a youth goes through that
program, they need to have a support

Page 3261 MS. OSMOND, EXAM. BY MR. MESSENGER

person, an adult, accompany them. And it worked out that I was the person that
was there most consistently.

126. Q. Is it unusual for a child under your care or with whom you're involved in an ongoing relationship, like a file like this one, to be in conflict with the law?

A. It's not unusual.

127. Q. So it wasn't - was it unusual for you to have to be in this role as an adult support person in the Restorative Justice Program?

A. No.

128. Q. One of the things that we'll hear, and other individuals will speak to this, is that the Restorative Justice in this case really didn't conclude until May or June of 2004, a number of months after the incident in January.

A. Yes.

129. Q. Is that a typical time frame for involvement in a Restorative Justice Program, from your experience?

A. It's not unusual. It - sometimes it takes a while before the referral gets
through the process and someone is assigned the file, and then there's an
information session that the youth would go through, and then they have to meet
with the Restorative Justice counselor, probably a couple of times before that.
Sometimes they have what they call accountability sessions, depending on what
the agreement is with the youth.

Page 3262 MS. OSMOND, EXAM. BY MR. MESSENGER
130. Q. We also have heard evidence that, starting in January and moving into the summer of 2004, A.'s involvement in the criminal justice system escalated. Were you aware that he began to be involved in a pattern or a number of situations where he was stealing cars?

A. I was made aware of that through - well, when he came back into the group
home, through the group home system, whenever there was an incident they would
forward the information to the agency. So I was aware of it in that respect, and
T. also, when she had information, she would let me know.

131. Q. And what changes, if any, would you take to your care plan for A. when you learned about the extent of his involvement in youth crime?

A. I guess, I mean, really we just continued to try to provide support to
him, and try to guide him. But nothing, nothing concrete in terms of, you know -
we'd be encouraging to take advantage of the services that we had, but there
would be nothing really that we could, I guess, force him to do.

132. Q. Are there any particular programs that are geared towards youth who are actively involved in the youth criminal justice system, through Department of Community Services?

A. Not that I'm aware of.

133. Q. Other than the involvement that you with Restorative Justice with A.B. arising out of the January 2004 charge, were

Page 3263 MS. OSMOND, EXAM. BY MR. MESSENGER
you involved with him in Restorative Justice in any of the other charges that he faced?

A. No, I don't believe. It was just the one charge. Or, there was a number of
charges, but one event.

134. Q. Right. I will need to ask you to speak up, just so that we can hear you clearly.

A. Okay.

135. Q. As the adult support person in the Restorative Justice Program, you would have been part of receiving some information about his Restorative Justice contract and his success or failure in the program, right?

A. Yes.

136. Q. So, for example, if we look at the document that's found at page 6735, this is a fax to you from Hope Bowden from the Community Justice Society, and we'll hear from Ms. Bowden later today, I expect, but it attaches, on the second page, a Restorative Justice Program, Restorative Justice Agreement...

A. Yes.

137. Q. ...Proposed Disposition Plan. As the adult support person, it would be ordinary for you to receive this...

A. Yes.

138. Q. ...information?

A. With A.'s permission.

139. Q. And this - with A.'s permission.

A. Yes.

Page 3264 MS. OSMOND, EXAM. BY MR. MESSENGER
140. Q. So he has to agree for you to receive this information. And does he have to agree that you can be his...

A. Yes.

141. Q. ...adult support person?

A. Yes.

142. Q. And the terms of this agreement were that he was to perform 60 hours of community services work.

A. Yes.

143. Q. And also agreed to attend the CJS, I think that's Community Justice Society, "Options to Anger" program?

A. That's right.

144. Q. And would you - you would have been aware of these requirements?

A. Yes.

145. Q. What steps, if any, would you have taken in your role to facilitate A.'s involvement in carrying through with these terms of this agreement?

A. Well, the community service part, of course, would be up to Restorative
Justice to find a suitable placement, and to my knowledge, that didn't get
started prior to the end of our involvement. With regard to the "Options to
Anger" program, I would have been in contact with the group home, and we
would've tried to ensure that A. got to those, those meetings. His mother was
also very involved, in terms of getting A. to appointments, as needed. So it was
a, there was

Page 3265 MS. OSMOND, EXAM. BY MR. MESSENGER

a, I guess, a co-operation in terms of trying to support him to get there.

146. Q. I understand that A.'s involvement with Restorative Justice as a result of the January 2004 matter ultimately failed.

A. Yes.

147. Q. Do you understand the reasons for that failure?

A. I believe that he had missed some of the appointments at the "Options to
Anger" program, and then I think it was - probably had something to do with the
fact that he had subsequent charges, as well. And I believe, if I'm not
mistaken, Hope had sent a letter indicating that they wouldn't be - they were
going to be referring his original charges back to Court.

148. Q. And I think you received a copy of that. If you look, actually, again in that volume, at 6756. This is a letter dated June 25, 2004, and it's from Hope Bowden.

A. Yes.

149. Q. And it's from the Community Justice Society, addressed to you?

A. Yes.

150. Q. And it says: I'm writing to inform you that since A.A.B. has failed to complete the terms set out in the Restorative Justice Agreement by the date indicated

Page 3266 MS. OSMOND, EXAM. BY MR. MESSENGER
above we're referring the case back to the Halifax Regional Police Service, who will
determine the appropriate course of action.

A. And I believe that when the agreement was, when the agreement was signed, our
involvement, my involvement with A. actually terminated soon after that, if I'm
not mistaken.

COMMISSIONER: Your involvement what?

WITNESS: With A. had ended soon after the contract was drawn up.

151. Q. Yeah, and we'll come to that in a minute, I think. In fact, it was around that same time that the Department of Community Services actually closed your file...

A. Mmm hmm.

152. Q. ...on A. Let's take a step back, though, and come back to his second involvement in - at the Reigh Allen Center for a moment, before we go back to the closing - just so we can follow his path a little bit further. After the first stay at the Reigh Allen Center, in November 2003, he returned home.

A. Yes.

153. Q. And it was during that time, I understand, in January, that he had his first charge, and there may have been some subsequent ones. But he went back and had a second stay at the Reigh Allen Center in February of 2004. Do you remember what prompted that second stay, the second voluntary

Page 3267 MS. OSMOND, EXAM. BY MR. MESSENGER
agreement?

A. I believe it was a phone call from his stepfather, and his stepfather was
quite angry and upset. Things had deteriorated in the home again in terms of -
use the word again, "volatile", and he basically was asking us to get him out
before something bad happened. So it appeared to be quite urgent.

154. Q. Was A. at this time, can you recall, continuing to be involved with counselling with Nancy Rogers-Currie or Lou Costanzo at the IWK?

A. There were appointments set with Lou Constanza. The attendance had been
sporadic.

155. Q. And what role did you play, if any, in ensuring that A. made appointments with his counsellors?

A. That would've been his mother's responsibility, during the time that he was
with them.

156. Q. And this time, at the Reigh Allen Center, as is typical, I think, it was just for a relatively short stay, and it was pending a longer-term placement in another...

A. That's right.

157. Q. ...group home setting. So correct me if I'm wrong, but I understand that the dates were from February 14th, 2004, to March 7th, 2004, he was at the Reigh Allen Center?

A. That sounds right.

158. Q. And that at that time, he was then able to find - a

Page 3268 MS. OSMOND, EXAM. BY MR. MESSENGER
spot became available at Hawthorne House?

A. That's right.

159. Q. And what is Hawthorne House?

A. Hawthorne House would be a group home for young men, and it's - unlike the
Reigh Allen Center, it's actually a house. It's - children have more of a
home-like setting. And it's, they basically - there are staff who act as parents
of the youth and try to get them into their routines and things that you would
do in a, sort of a normal family setting.

160. Q. In March - we can look at the records, if we have to, but on March the 2nd or 3rd, the Reigh Allen Center contacted you to indicate that A. had - was suspected again of stealing another car, even during that short time at the Reigh Allen Center. Would A.'s involvement in the criminal justice system, and his - well, would his involvement in the criminal justice system have affected, in any way, the decision or appropriateness for him to be placed in a longer-term group home setting?

A. Not really.

161. Q. Is it unusual for kids who are involved in the criminal justice system to be placed in a group home?

A. Yes. It's often part of, part of what they come with.

162. Q. And just so we're clear, so it's not unusual.

Page 3269 MS. OSMOND, EXAM. BY MR. MESSENGER

A. It's not unusual.

163. Q. A placement became available at the Hawthorne House starting on March the 8th, 2004, and I understand that A. stayed there until about the middle of May.

A. Mmm hmm.

164. Q. What programs would be available at Hawthorne House that you were aware of?

A. Well, Hawthorne would have sort of a life skills component, social skills
component. They would do group work with the youth that were there. They would
encourage and support youth going to school and participating in whatever
services, other services, may be there. In A.'s case, they were able to arrange
for him to get into the at-risk program at Bi-Centennial Junior High, which
would be their local school, and the agency also offered a tutor to A. at that
point to try to help boost him up and try to do some catch up with the losses he
had in terms of his education.

165. Q. What is the at-risk program at Bi-Centennial Junior High?

A. I really can't speak to it very much, but basically, it's for some of
those kids that we would say have kind of fallen between the cracks, and are not
able to keep up in the classroom that would normally be where they would - you
know, if everything had gone according to plan - it's the kids that I guess have
the most difficulty in school.

Page 3270 MS. OSMOND, EXAM. BY MR. MESSENGER

166. Q. Is it, nevertheless, a voluntary participation program? In other words, was it up to A. as to whether he would attend a program or not?

A. Well, school is supposed to be mandatory, so if he was going to school,
and I'm probably going to skirt around the question a little bit, if he was
going to school, it would be the best place for him to be, because it would be
something that would be more geared to his own specific needs, rather than being
in a classroom and being completely lost. So I - he made choices. It wasn't
really - in my opinion, it's not really voluntary. You need to go to school. But
he did make some choices that were not in his best interests, for sure.

167. Q. Sure. And you're being diplomatic, but...

A. I'm trying to be.

168. Q. Yeah. He chose not to participate...

A. Yes.

169. Q. ...in that program.

A. Although it was an expectation.

170. Q. And it was an expectation of him living at the Hawthorne House, as well?

A. Yes.

171. Q. And he didn't meet that expectation?

A. That's right.

172. Q. And what about the tutor that was offered to him? Do you know if he took advantage of that?

Page 3271 MS. OSMOND, EXAM. BY MR. MESSENGER

A. He did not.

173. Q. Again, that was a refusal that he made?

A. Yes.

174. Q. During his time at Hawthorne House, did he continue to have counselling from Nancy Rogers-Currie or Lou Costanza at the IWK?

A. He had appointments with Lou Costanza. It would appear that he actually
didn't make it to those sessions that were set up for him, and he also had
appointments with the Choices program for - drug dependency services.

175. Q. And did he not show up for those, either?

A. He did attend some of those.

176. Q. And was it successful for him, as a program?

A. No, it wasn't.

177. Q. Can - are you able to say why not?

A. At one point, A. I believe told the group home staff that it was really -
it was more me wanting him to attend choices than it was him. He basically, he
was just doing it 'cause he felt that he should, I guess.

COMMISSIONER: I'm sorry. I can't really here you. You're not speaking very loud.

WITNESS: Sorry.

COMMISSIONER: A. what?

178. Q. You thought A. was doing it just for you?

A. He did not want to attend Choices. He felt that it

Page 3272 MS. OSMOND, EXAM. BY MR. MESSENGER

was more for my benefit than for his.

179. Q. So is it fair to say, and correct me if I'm wrong in this characterization, that he was just not prepared to engage in that program?

A. That's fair to say.

180. Q. And I understand, as well, that in fact Lou Costanzo, the counsellor at the IWK, stopped offering services to A. because he was not compliant with his appointments?

A. That's right.

181. Q. What did you understand about A.'s behavior while at the Hawthorne House? Were there any changes or improvements?

A. A. was gone a lot from the house. It was really difficult, I think, for them
to get a real handle on who A. was because he was absent so frequently.

182. Q. And would you be aware of the fact that he was often absent from Hawthorne House?

A. Yes.

183. Q. And would you be aware of his ongoing involvement or even escalation in criminal activities...

A. Yes.

184. Q. ...during this time?

A. Yes. If they were aware of it, then I would've been made aware of it
also.

185. Q. To what extent would that have an effect on the risk that had been identified that A. was under at the beginning,